A couple of days ago, I posted the following in TCOD:
I’d like to pose another question about Femdom relationships. If you are not already in one, please sit back for a moment, close your eyes, and take yourself to a place where you can imagine that you are.
Now, imagine that you’ve been asked to complete a task or a series of tasks on a regular basis. (Or imagine that you have asked someone to do this, if you are the Domme).
Should the tasks not be completed from time to time even though it was possible to do so, whose responsibility is it? Is it the Domme’s responsibility for not being demanding enough, controlling enough, etc? Or is it the submissive’s responsibility for not exerting enough effort?
Please try to think of your own example so that it feels more personal to you, but in order to fully explain what I mean, I will share one story.
I recently read a blog post where a man was describing a situation in which he had not completed all of his tasks because he was lazy (his word, not mine.) He remarked that his Mistress knew how he was and that she needed to utilize chastity, spank him, etc to show her control over him so that he would complete his tasks. She felt he should complete his tasks without her having to do these things.
I’m not sure if I have conveyed my question well, but as you reply, I’ll clarify if need be.
Later I will share some of the responses I received, but before I do, I wanted to ask you. What are your thoughts?
No related posts.
I encounter this attitude a lot. In my opinion, each individual adult is responsible for themselves and nobody else. So whomever leaves agreed tasks incomplete is either responsible for that, or responsible for explaining what prevented the tasks being completed.
If the submissive in your example wanted anything more or different from his dominant than he was already getting, I feel that the responsibility for initiating negotiations about that rests squarely on the shoulders of the submissive. Otherwise, how is the dominant supposed to know he expects her to do these things?
If any negotiations had concluded with an agreement from the dominant to provide more [chastity, spanking, whatever], and the dominant omitted those [chastity, spanking, whatever], activities, then I think the responsibility for those omissions obviously belongs to the dominant.
But if there had been no such agreement in place (and in my experience there usually isn’t), and the submissive said one thing, did another, and arbitrarily blamed his dominant for his actions, then I think that the submissive is clearly responsible for his own behaviour.
I believe that the submissive in the situation above is abdicating the responsibility he apparently agreed to undertake, and passed the buck to his dominant, because (as I have heard so many male submissives say) “she isn’t dominating enough” for him. Since the dominant in your example thinks her submissive should do as he is told without extra effort from her, that indicates to me that there were no negotiations in which she agreed to do what the submissive said he wanted and expected from her.
I often hear male submissives expressing dissatisfaction with the ways or amounts they are dominated, and I often hear dominant women expressing dissatisfaction with the ways or amounts their male submissives submit. I think that those problems are mostly due to all participants being insufficiently self aware regarding what they themselves specifically want, what the other parties specifically want, and being insufficiently able to negotiate that specifically and explicitly.
The behaviour of the submissive in your example is what I would describe as “bratty”. Some dominants like that. I do not.
This comment was interrupted in its composition in the middle, due to kvetch bringing me dinner without me having to do anything but point and grunt. I also got cake. Both myself and kvetch were very happy with this outcome. :)
I explicitly negotiated this specific arrangement prior to the foodalness being brung.
Yum. :)
Here’s the way I see it in my relationship with my wife. I asked her to dominate me. I asked her to expect more of me around the house and more of my attitude toward her. I asked her if I could buy a chastity cage so she could indulge me in that kink.
The key here is that while she does these things, I asked her to — so if I want it to continue, I need to put forth the effort to make these things worth her while. She does have some specific punishments for me not completing an assigned chore or for not behaving as she expects — but they are just that, punishments, they are not things that I seek.
In my opinion, someone who expects their Domme to force them into being the perfect sub is going at it from the wrong angle. They’re expecting their Domme to change so their Domme will force them to change — that’s not how it works and I think is a big reason for why so many Femdom relationships fail.
*steps down from soapbox* The usual disclaimers apply here — this is my opinion based on my own experience. If women can be truly happy in a relationship where the impetus for everything comes from them without any effort on the sub’s part, then that is well and good for them… but I see Femdom relationships as being focused on making the female’s life easier, not adding more to the already-infinite todo list which women carry around with them.
In some ways, it’s both of their responsibilities. But not in the obvious way.
If the question comes up, and if there is unclarity as to whose responsibility it is, then it’s both their responsibilities to clarify the roles.
After all, we who aren’t in the particular relationship can’t decide for them how they’re going to operate. It’s to the individuals to decide.
Now, if they collectively decide that she is the disciplinarian, then so be it. Of course, if he shirks his duties, then any discipline received should be something that *doesn’t* push his happy buttons. Chances are the worst thing she can do to him is to ignore him until he shapes up and does what he’s supposed to.
On the other hand, if he’s supposed to act like an adult and follow through on what he’s agreed to do, then her reaction is still probably the same thing: ignore him until he gets his act under control.
It sounds in this case, however, is that he’s engaging in wishful thinking. He’s trying to manipulate her into a scene — into giving him what he wants. He want attention. Kids learn at a very early age that if you don’t get positive attention for doing something good, it’s real easy to get negative attention for being naughty. Well, he’s doing the same thing, in my opinion.
If part of their play involves discipline – if that’s something that pushes his buttons – then they may need to work out approved ways he can disobey in order to “deserve” the discipline.
But shirking his duties shouldn’t be on the list. For that, he should truly be punished: by being ignored.
A very interesting question and one obviously well suited to engender self introspection.
Given the range of the situation as you have described it, and barring instances where circumstances beyond one’s control interfere with the completion of the task, I think that the person who takes on the task bears the responsibility. That’s part of what it means to accept the task. It’s not just the completion of a physical chore that is important, but holding true to the mental goal, caring for one’s Dom/me by caring for the undertaking. I see it as parallel to the medieval practice of a woman giving a knight a scarf as a “favor”, something for him to remember her by, to focus on in order to better cherish her. Such a task is a gift from the Dom/me to the sub, and as such should be nourished and respected.
Now, prior to the beginning when the task is given, the Dom/me has the responsibility as soon as the task is imagined with any seriousness. It must be well considered so as not to endanger the sub, crafted with compassion so as to bring out reciprocal feelings in the sub, and guided with wisdom so as to efficiently play the most beautiful tune possible upon the heart and mind of the sub. Up until the point when the task is given, all responsibility lies with the Dom/me. Once the task is given, all responsibility lies with the sub. It’s not exactly “fire and forget”, but it is definitely a lot like turning a bird out of the nest and hoping it will fly. In a Femdom relationship the idea is to teach the bird to fly home again and again, thus exploring more and more of the surrounding territory within the relationship.
Arafin
he describes himself as lazy and She knows it. A possibility that he may need to do a bit of self acessment before committing. She knows of his laziness. Is this type of task within his realistic limits, or should it be something that may better enlighten his loss. The loss of achievement. It just appears that there was not a meeting of the minds.
I’m right with Hersfover above, with one addition. The sub is getting what he wants (chastity and domination) in exchange for doing what the Domme wants – presumably these chores. If the sub isn’t holding up his end of it, but expects the Domme to give him MORE of what he wants because of it, that strikes me as both greedy and thoughtless.
Were I the Domme in these circumstances, I’d be inclined to withhold what the sub wants, not provide more!
My wife and I are definitely NOT in a D/s relationship, but we still joke about it. When there’s a chore that needs doing, sometimes she’ll joke “Don’t forget, or there’ll be NO spankings for you!”
My wife is pretty vanilla, and even SHE gets that! lol
mikecb
If I chose not to do something I agreed to do for a Domme then I would be taking back the power I “surrendered” in the first place.
If I agreed to do something I should either do it or be a man and tell her why I couldn’t. Using this failure to place the blame on her or manipulate her would make me feel childish.
If a submissive agrees to do tasks, he alone is solely responsible for completing them. If he fails, it is certainly the Domme’s call on whether to punish him or not, but punishment that rewards that type of behavior will prove ineffective and damaging to her control, and to the relationship in the long run.
A better approach is to do the opposite. If he fails to do the tasks he has agreed to do, the domination stops until they are completed. If he’s into physical control, that could be used as a reward rather than punishment.
If the discipline can be severe enough to correct his behavior, then perhaps trying punishment is a good idea. But I would be concerned that the punishment might reward sloth, rather than correct it.
It is a privilege to serve a Domme, and any submissive male who is fortunate enough to have a caring and controlling Domme should NEVER betray her trust by trying to manipulate her behavior. That smacks of selfishness, not submissiveness.
I used to be a manager in a former life. One of the management books that was refered as a must read is “The One Minute Manager”. In essence the book is divided in three parts: the one minute goal setting, the one minute reprimand and finally the one minute praise.
In a D/s relationship, these principles would apply as well. The dominant set some goals to be achieved, in this case task or duties. If the sub fails to accomplish what was asked, then it is the responsibility of the dominant to reprimand and punish the sub for his shortcoming. On the opposite, if the sub achieved the goal, then he should be praised for his action.
These principles apply in all situations. I remember reading an article written by Lady Misato a few years ago on this aspect and it espoused the principles of The One Minute Manager. I am including the link for those of you interested.
http://www.freewebs.com/ladymisato/
Grown men need to behave like grown men. If a man says he will submit that is what he must do. If he fails to do as he says then it is his responsibility. To place it on the Domme is ridiculous.
If he fails to do what he is responsible for doing then she is placed in a position where she is forced to punish him in whatever means she has deemed necessary. All she is responsible for is punishing him. He is responsible for the failure.
Santiago Says:
I used to be a manager in a former life. One of the management books that was refered as a must read is “The One Minute Manager”. In essence the book is divided in three parts: the one minute goal setting, the one minute reprimand and finally the one minute praise.
In a D/s relationship, these principles would apply as well. The dominant set some goals to be achieved, in this case task or duties. If the sub fails to accomplish what was asked, then it is the responsibility of the dominant to reprimand and punish the sub for his shortcoming. On the opposite, if the sub achieved the goal, then he should be praised for his action.
These principles apply in all situations.
I disagree that those principles, as you phrase them, apply to all situations. Imagine this:
If a person
– regards being reprimanded as a desirable outcome
– feels encouraged and validated by reprimands
– actively solicits the reprimand by declining to honour his agreements
– continues to break his agreements in the hope of gaining more reprimands
then a reprimand hardly serves the interests of the manager. Only the interests of the misbehaving are served in that circumstance.
I think in your phrasing, “reprimand” and “praise” might more usefully be termed “sanction” and “reward”.
I know that some individuals regard some responses as rewards which are traditionally considered sanctions. I think that in those cases, an individual’s response to a consequence must determine whether it is ultimately a sanction or a reward. I think that the submissive in Lady Julia’s example clearly considers the reprimand to be a reward, and is just as clearly actively soliciting the reprimand by misbehaving.
– Why would I want to encourage and reward undesirable behaviour?
– How would that serve my interests?
– Why would any person want to encourage undesirable behaviour?
I think that your model is unproductive in this kind of situation.
I am an adult. If I make a commitment to do something, barring something I cannot control, I usually do it. If I don’t, I do not blame it on someone else. I accept the responsibility and praise, along with the consequences and rewards.
If she has explained what she wants, when she wants it and she has made certain I clearly understand what is expected then I am not sure how my failure to do it could be her fault.
I have read some of the same type of comments. Usually the woman is attempting to give the man what he wants when being dominated but she isn’t giving enough to satisfy him. As you said he blames it on her because she is not spanking him enough, denying him enough, and so on. Assuming he is a reasonably intelligent adult, isn’t that merely an excuse?
If I agree to submit to someone and only submit when she gives me what I want, I do not consider that submitting.
Someone in TCOD mentioned leaders motivating. I follow the point however I ask myself what would happen in a work situation if I were given tasks to complete and did not do them as asked when asked. My boss is not going to pay me more or give me more time off to do what I agreed to do in the first place. The self-satisfaction, my salary, and my self-respect motivate me to do what I agree to do. In a relationship I would add that pleasing my partner is important as well.
TQE
This is in response to the comment of June 2nd posted by Lady Lubyanka.
She says:
“If a person
- regards being reprimanded as a desirable outcome
- feels encouraged and validated by reprimands
- actively solicits the reprimand by declining to honour his agreements
- continues to break his agreements in the hope of gaining more reprimands
then a reprimand hardly serves the interests of the manager. Only the interests of the misbehaving are served in that circumstance.”
To that, my reply is the sub is topping you from the bottom and as a dominant you are waisting your time on him. After all, you want him to serve you; you are not there to care for his needs to be punished all the time.
Generally speaking, a punishmnent is not something that someone relishes. I remember that when I received a painful spanking, I made sure that not to repeat the offence. If someone likes to be disciplined by way of corporal punishment and he/she strives for this, then you are dealing with a masochist and as a dominant, you may not want that type of submissive being with you.
In terms of praising a submissive, well you have the perfect example in Lady Julia’s June 4th blog, first portion where she praised Richard for cleaning up the kitchen after he cooked the supper. It looks not that significant but it is indeed. He received positive feedback that should encouraged him to continue in the future.